Snape’s Worst Memory
chapter twenty-eight of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Umbridge becomes headmistress, and interrogates Harry as to the whereabouts of Dumbledore and Sirius, but is interrupted as Fred and George launch their fireworks. Harry then goes to Occlumency, but when Snape rushes out dives into his Pensieve – and watches as James Potter torments Snape while Lily protests. Soon, though, Snape discovers Harry, and kicks him out of his office.
It had just occurred to Harry what Mad-Eye would say if he ever heard that Harry had drunk anything offered by a known enemy…. He raised the cup to his lips again and pretended to take a sip, though keeping his mouth tightly closed. Umbridge’s smile widened.
(by Drew Graham)
Filch and Umbridge were standing, apparently transfixed with horror, halfway down the stairs…. Filch… dashed to a nearby cupboard, pulled out a broom, and began swatting at the fireworks in midair….
(by Beeeb)
Harry had seen enough. Laughing, he ducked down low, ran to a door he knew was concealed behind a tapestry a little way along the corridor and slipped through it to find Fred and George hiding just behind it, listening to Umbridge’s and Filch’s yells and quaking with suppressed mirth.
(by Leela Starsky)
“Very well, very well – Potter,” said Snape, “we shall resume this lesson tomorrow evening instead.”
(by Vizen)
Harry stopped in front of the desk and gazed down at his fifteen-year-old father.
(by Marta T)
With another shock of excitement, Harry saw Sirius give James the thumbs-up…. He was very good-looking; his dark hair fell into his eyes with a sort of casual elegance neither James’s nor Harry’s could ever have achieved, and a girl sitting behind him was eyeing him hopefully, though he didn’t seem to have noticed.
(by Elspethelf)
And two seats along from this girl – Harry’s stomach gave another pleasurable squirm – was Remus Lupin.
(by LMRourke)
Harry looked around and glimpsed Snape a short way away, moving between the tables toward the doors into the entrance hall, still absorbed in his own examination paper.
(by Vizen)
Sirius’s head turned. He had become very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit.
“Excellent,” he said softly. “Snivellus.”
(by Jenny Dolfen)
“Leave him ALONE!”
James and Sirius looked around…. it was one of the girls from the lake edge…. Harry’s mother…
(by Tealin Raintree)
“Leave him alone,” Lily repeated. She was looking at James with every sign of great dislike. “What’s he done to you?”
“Well,” said James, appearing to deliberate the point, “it’s more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean…”
(by Mudblood428)
“You think you’re funny,” she said coldly. “But you’re just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.”
“I will if you go out with me, Evans,” said James quickly. “Go on… Go out with me, and I’ll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again.”
(by reallycorking)
A hand closed tight over [Harry's] upper arm, closed with a pincerlike grip. Wincing, Harry looked around to see who had hold of him, and saw, with a thrill of horror, a fully grown, adult-sized Snape standing right beside him, white with rage.
(by Becky Roberts)
It was scary: Snape’s lips were shaking, his face was white, his teeth were bared….
“You will not repeat what you saw to anybody!” Snape bellowed.
(by Cambryn)
about the chapter
Prior to the release of this book, the ‘Harry Potter for Grown-Ups’ message boards were circulating a list of “Top Things we Won’t Hear in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.” Many of the additions were hilarious, and it included memorable quotes like Molly asking, “Good grief, Harry, must you always spend so much time here?”; Draco Malfoy ordering, “Crabbe, you follow me. Goyle, stay here,” or Ron admitting, “I read it in Hogwarts, a History.” But one of my favorite inclusions on the list was a quote from Hermione, where she said, “Screw it, let’s party.” It’s one of my favorites, of course, because once Umbridge took over Hogwarts and Fred and George launched their rockets, this quote became the only one of the fifty I saved that we sort of did hear in Phoenix, when Hermione decided not to do her homework as she was feeling a bit “rebellious.” Just goes to show – you never know.
Something You May Not Have Noticed
One of the more interesting aspects of Umbridge’s having to chase around fireworks all day is the fact that it seems she really isn’t a very powerful witch. We will see her do a N.E.W.T.-level bit of magic later on, but when it comes to these fireworks… can you really imagine McGonagall or Flitwick having any trouble at all getting rid of the things if they wanted to? Perhaps there’s more than one reason Umbridge isn’t teaching any magic in her classes. I’m not convinced she could pull it off.
The Wizarding World
Not like Harry needed another example of the blatant corruption in the Ministry, but it’s fascinating that when Umbridge is interrogating Harry, she admits that she knows Harry was talking to “the criminal Black” when she almost caught Sirius in the Gryffindor common room fire. Say what? After all, Sirius was imprisoned for killing Harry’s parents, yet she clearly didn’t stop for a moment to think about the fact that Sirius is clearly not trying to kill Harry. Her perspective doesn’t make any sense at all, but that’s Umbridge: anyone who isn’t for her is against her, so Sirius and Harry are in the same (albeit illogical) boat. Or rather, Sirius and Harry have both shown up the Ministry of Magic, one by escaping Azkaban and the other by claiming Voldemort’s return, so both need to be punished – regardless of the law.
The Boy Who Lived
Harry’s experience in Snape’s memory is an interesting one. When he first drops in, his first thought is to seek out his father; and he’s so absorbed in watching James, Sirius, Lupin, and Wormtail that he doesn’t even think to look for his mother. Yet after watching the events unfold, he realizes how arrogant James really was – and without even thinking about it, is left relating much more to Snape and his mother than to James. Dumbledore has mentioned before that James’s and Snape’s relationship was similar to Harry’s relationship to Malfoy; except he didn’t mention that in Harry’s case, the roles are reversed, as Malfoy (like James) is almost always the aggressor. The experience really turns Harry’s world upside down, but it also points to a flaw in Snape’s character – after all, the reason Snape hates Harry is his similarity to his father, yet Harry comes out of the memory relating much more to Snape. Here’s betting Snape would never, in a million years, guess that Harry would have had that reaction.
Something to Remember
Mentioning that she knew Harry and Sirius were friends wasn’t Umbridge’s only arrogant slip-up. She’s also full of herself enough to brag to Harry that her fireplace is the only one in Hogwarts not being monitored by the Ministry of Magic. Of course, she doesn’t stop to consider what Harry might make of this information.
The Final Word
“[Dolores Umbridge] is one of those people, and they do exist in real life, who will always side with the established order. As far as she is concerned authority cannot be wrong so she doesn’t question it, and I would go as far as to say that whatever happened and whoever took over at the Ministry, Umbridge would be there, she likes power. So she is going to side with the people who give her the authority. “–J.K. Rowling, July 2005
Nice artwork. The funny thing is that James looks a lot like Harry in all these pictures, but you can still tell them apart.
Hi hi, also great comic at the end.
The only reason we know that this is Snape’s worst memory is because JKR told us so in the title of the chapter. Of course everyone jumped to conclusions. What it’s really about will not be revealed until the end of book 7.
James and Sirius are pretty mean to Peter. It kind of makes me think it’s no wonder he turned against them. Not that I don’t blame him for what he did, but it’s a little similar to the way Sirius treated Kreacher and what ends up happening there.
Memories are confusing. Harry can see stuff that Snape didn’t look at or presumably see. Is it all in Snapes subconsciousness? Dumbledore later says that his memories are bound to be clearer because he’s so good at remembering details, so it is about what people notice.
I never noticed this before, but do we see a bit of Sectumsempra in the memory?
We only ever see Harry being escorted out of a memory, so I’m wondering how someone gets out of them actively.
Kim said this on January 6, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Oh, happy day! Another update! I’m always amazed at how much happens in these few chapters.
Also, I love Harry’s thoughts as he’s being interrogated by Umbridge–Moody would be furious that Harry had very nearly drunk that cup of tea. And it just shows, again, what a good actor Barty Crouch, Jr. was, for his teachings to still ring true to the real Moody.
One of my favorite lines: “I could have got rid of the sparklers myself, of course, but I wasn’t sure whether I had the authority….” Lol, I adore Professor Flitwick. :)
Also, this chapter makes me dislike Peter even more. I mean, granted, we’re already swayed at this point in the story, but I always kind of hoped that if we saw him younger, there might be a redeeming quality, but it turns out he was always pretty weak and fawning on whoever was around and not very clever (Sirius had it right–he runs around with a werewolf every month, how does he *not* know how to answer that question on his O.W.L.s?)
Natalia said this on January 6, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Kim–I always assumed it was Sectumsempra.
And, yeah, I’ve wondered the same thing about exiting memories. Obviously if it ends, you don’t get to leave, since GoF just has Harry pass from memory to memory . . .
Natalia said this on January 6, 2010 at 1:49 pm
This chapter actually always bothered me because I always had a nagging feeling that perhaps Snape wanted Harry to see these memeories. Remember, Snape borrowed the Pensieve from Dumbledore specifically for these lessons and after Harry’s experiences in Dubmledore’s memories (in Goblet of Fire) Snape hopefully got the heads-up that Harry not only knows what a Pensieve is but has also demonstrated a curiosity about its contents. With that knowledge in mind, and with evidence stemming from previous Occlumency lessons, if I were Snape I might conclude that my memories were far safer in my own head than in a Pensieve with Harry alone in the room!
In any case, it also seems illogical (to me, anyway) that Snape would have allowed Harry to even see him putting memories in there; I would have assumed that his pride in his own Occlumency skills and his desire to maintain an image of invulnerability would have caused him to remove his memories in private and then store and lock the Pensieve far away from Harry’s prying eyes. It seems like an uncharacteristic neglect of security from a character who has spells and locks over his office, classroom, storage cupboards, etc.
And in the end, of course, it is this memory combined with many others, that finally give Harry some insight into Snape’s true self. In Deathly Hallows we see Snape protest Dumbledore’s use of both him and Harry as cogs in a larger plan to defeat Voldermort, and while I think Snape to be a wetched human being (fascinating character, though) perhaps this was just one little bit of his resistance to Dumbledore’s plans coming through — introducing Harry to at least one memory that he’ll have to eventually see.
Far-fetched, I know, but it still nags me a little bit. And of course it doesn’t explain Snape’s lividity after discovering Harry in the Pensieve, but if we know one thing about Snape, it’s that he’s an incredible actor.
And, just to finish up, 2 quick Pensieve questions to add to Kim’s. How do you know someone’s in your Pensieve? And what would happen if the memory you were in was returned to its owner’s brain before you got out? Images of Harry trapped in Snape’s skull are dancing in my mind right now!
Meri said this on January 6, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Meri, I like what you pulled out about Snape’s wanting/not wanting Harry to see those memories. It’s always bothered me, too, that he makes *such* a show of putting those memories into the Pensieve, in front of a kid who is outrageously curious… and hates him… and is nothing if not foolhardy enough to take a peek at his first opportunity. Snape either wants Harry to see them, or wants to basically gloat in front of him that there are memories he doesn’t want Harry to see. But the pieces just don’t add up. He certainly seems genuinely angry when he finds Harry in there…. I don’t know.
Another question I’ve always had about the Pensieve is whether the memory stays in your head (in part or in whole) when you put the memory in the Pensieve. Snape would seemingly make it clear that it leaves your head completely, but if this were the case, how would you know which memories were there? And once you’d viewed them in the Pensieve, wouldn’t you have a new memory of them?
All in all, I think Pensieve magic was just a rare area where Rowling was a bit sloppy and didn’t work out details. She’s said in interviews that Pensieve memories reflect reality and not the perspective of the person who gave the memory, but this is very strange for lots of reasons. Also, Harry really shouldn’t be able to hear the Maurauders if Snape couldn’t, or the magic just takes off in all kinds of ridiculous directions. For example, couldn’t you hang out in the Ministry of Magic for a while, go back into the memory in the Pensieve, and then just travel in the memory to Fudge’s office to find out what he was talking about? There need to be limits, and there aren’t. Alas.
John Kearns said this on January 6, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Here’s something I’ve always suspected–the memory shows the Marauders as much worse than they actually were. Oh, no doubt they picked on and harassed Snape, but no one’s memory is 100% accurate, and in HBP, we’ve seen that memory tampering is possible. But everyone tends to remember things that casts them in a little better light, even people like Snape. It’s entirely possible that the memory leaves Harry so disgusted with his dad simply because Snape was disgusted with his dad, and it was Snape’s version of things. Unless the memory sat in the pensieve untouched for twenty years (we know it didn’t), it’s bound to have been subtly tweaked.
Also, just a note for the Wizarding World thing at the end. Sirius was NOT in Azkaban for killing Harry’s parents. The conversation between professors in PoA that Harry overhears starts with “the worst he did isn’t widely known.” Sirius was in prison for murdering thirteen people, including one school boy friend of Harry’s dad. Unless Umbridge was in with either the Order (she wasn’t) or Death Eaters (she wasn’t), she wouldn’t have known about the whole secret keeper thing, ergo she wouldn’t have equated Black being friendly with Potter as something completely illogical.
Spider said this on January 6, 2010 at 3:59 pm
Becky Roberts’ painting is one of my favorite works of fanart of the entire HP fandom. I’m so glad to see it here. ^^
Regardless of his reason for using the Pensieve in the first place, I always saw Snape’s intentional display of removing his memories as being a show of … authority? power? I assumed he was snidely showing Harry that his own memories were safe, while all of Harry’s were fair game. Just another instance of abusing his power as an authority figure.
Still, it does seem a bit uncharacteristic of Snape, as he usually acts more cautious than pompous.
John, Harry was afraid that if young Snape went in one direction and the Marauders in another, he wouldn’t be able to follow James. Though we don’t find out if his fears are justified (because they all went outside), I took that to be the way the Pensieve works anyway. Though there isn’t a defined radius, and we don’t know if the extension and details of a memory are bound by physical limitations such as rooms, it seems that there are some limits nonetheless.
If memories do leave your mind completely after removing them, you would at least have the newly-created memory of removing them, along with the reason for removing them. Also, if Dumbledore uses the Pensieve for the purpose of seeing details he wasn’t aware of at the time the memory was being formed, in some cases, the reason for using a Pensieve would be to create new memories of a particular event.
Inky Squirrel said this on January 6, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Spider, I’m wondering if John meant that everyone thought Sirius had betrayed the Potters in some way, and so was responsible for their deaths, even if he did not directly kill them?
My thoughts on Harry seeing this memory of Snape’s are that Snape was directed by Dumbledore to allow Harry to see where the memories were stored, possibly to allow him to view Snape’s memories at some point, and to react convincingly when he finds Harry in the pensieve. It’s easy for Snape to react the way he does because he really doesn’t want Harry to see these memories, his humiliation at the hands of James, but is following orders. We know that Snape is a very good actor, as was already said, and that he also follows orders from Dumbledore. Of course, we don’t know what a good actor he is or how he follows orders until late in the 7th book. Before DH, I was very confused with this scene for all the reasons already pointed out. After reading books 4-7 repeatedly (I’m guessing I reread them in order about 20 times in a row, just couldn’t tear my self away when movie 6 was coming out!), I have decided that Snape must have been told to show Harry something, for what reason I am not 100% certain of, but we all know that Dumbledore has his reasons.
Jennifer said this on January 6, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Fascinating discussion about the limits of pensive memories. It certainly opens up all kinds of possibilities. I think there was something in this chapter about how Harry knew he wouldn’t be able to stray too far from Snape, since it was his memory he was in. That doesn’t really clear much up.
Meri, in response to how Snape knew Harry was in the pensive: I always assumed that although Harry would feel that he was completely inside the memory, anyone else in the room would just see him standing there with his face in the bowl. Not sure.
And John, in response to your comment in the “Recent Updates” section about this chapter: We did get a (very) brief prequel about the escapades of James and Sirius when J.K.R. wrote that short story about them on Sirius’ motorcycle for some charity auction. It’s kind of amusing, but certainly doesn’t reveal any new info.
But maybe if we could go back in a pensive memory and look at all the stuff we missed….
Ben said this on January 6, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Wow, Ben. I’m pretty embarrassed that I didn’t even think of the obvious answer of someone just having their head in a bowl (and we’ve seen Floo powder work like this, so why not?). I always assumed they were somehow submerged and Snape knew he was in there because it was kind of like seeing a television screen left on, he looked into the Pensieve and saw his memory “playing” with Harry visiting.
Natalia said this on January 6, 2010 at 6:22 pm
Ben, good thinking on the ‘head in a bowl.’ I’d never really thought about it before, but you’re probably right. Although that then begs the question of how it would look when Harry and Dumbledore were viewing a memory simultaneously in HBP. Perhaps they should have invited four or five more people along, just to give the portraits a laugh watching. ;)
Spider, I hadn’t thought of Sirius’s killing 13 people, but Umbridge surely would have been important enough to know that Sirius was also imprisoned for James and Lily’s deaths. Remember, she’s on the Wizengamot, in front of whom Dumbledore testified that Sirius was the Potters’ secret-keeper; also, she’s senior undersecretary to a Minister who spent Harry’s whole third year assuming that Sirius had escaped to come after Harry, and directing the might of the Ministry toward his protection. She should definitely know enough to realize that things don’t add up, although you’re right that it would be fair for her to still consider him a criminal until proven otherwise (though something tells me she wouldn’t give him the opportunity to prove otherwise).
John Kearns said this on January 6, 2010 at 7:07 pm
In regards to Umbridge, I’m fairly sure she’d have heard, or at least overheard, from Fudge. After all, he tells McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid, and Rosmerta of all people. In GoF he implicitly states that he doesn’t trust half giants (which includes Hagrid), and I don’t see him being bosom friends with McGonagall or Flitwick either, yet he tells them anyway. Worse, he tells them in a crowded pub, where anyone can overhear (and the trio do overhear). I just think he has a big mouth.
As to what was going on with Snape and the memories I’ve given it a lot of thought. I agree with the idea of Snape taunting Harry by making th ememories secure. I also think that Snape wasn’t as furious at Harry as he was terrified. If Harry had just seen that memory, then he had also come very close to seeing all the other memories giving proof of Snape and Lily’s friendship and the rest of the Prince’s Tale. Snape must have been out of his wits with fear that Harry had or would have learned about all that. That’s why this spell of Snape-anger is so drastically different from how livid he was at the end of PoA. Just my two cents.
hpboy13 said this on January 6, 2010 at 9:54 pm
I’ve worked for the (muggle, admittedly) Civil Service, and Umbridge is of all people likely to ‘work late’ and put in private overtime reading other people’s files. If she wanted to know anything, she’d find a way. Of course, she wouldn’t bother with stuff that wasn’t of value to herself at that particular time …
As for Snape’s memory: what always bothered him about Harry was his resemblance and relationship to James. And what really annoyed him about Harry was Harry’s unconditional, ignorant love for his father. Assuming that he guessed that Harry would have a little peep in the Pensieve (and who could resist?) wasn’t he trying to rattle Harry’s cage a bit and show him that what he believed wasn’t necessarily accurate? Rather like a precocious preschooler telling all her friends that it’s our parents who leave the Christmas presents! After all, Snape was clearly a brilliant teacher though not a lovable one, but he was also clear-sighted enough to know that it would take more than his talent to make Harry any good at Occlumency at all; so, yes, his memories would have been safer in his head … but then he couldn’t teach Harry another kind of lesson about James! For that reason, hpboy, I think Snape was play-acting his anger … or giving his real dislike and resentment of Harry a fake outlet … and had left his memories of Lily in his head where they’d be safe. He wouldn’t want to be without them, would he? And a good actor can for his own reasons produce ‘bad’ acting … as he clearly did in PoA, you’re right.
Deborah Hubbard said this on January 7, 2010 at 12:32 am
Ooh, good point about Snape’s fear-anger hpboy. I had never considered that before.
Inky Squirrel said this on January 7, 2010 at 12:41 am
Several thoughts about this chapter (and the ones that follow):
First – Harry imagining how Fudge would react about the disruption caused by the twins on Umbridge’s first day as Headmistress. I think that Fudge would hear about this episode from somebody else other than Umbridge (like she says later, “What Cornelius doesn’n know won’t hurt him”);
Second – We never hear about Umbridge inspecting Firenze’s classes. Weird, considering that it is another half-breed hired by Dumbledore without Umbridge’s approval;
Third – Umbridge has now full power over the school, why didn’t she used that power to complete the sacking of Professor Trelawney by having her expelled from the castle?
Jose Lopes said this on January 7, 2010 at 5:50 am
hpboy13, I think I like your theory best so far, I hadn’t thought about it that way. Snape is removing the memories because Harry isn’t ready (or allowed) to see them, rather than because he simply doesn’t *want* him too (after all, surely he wouldn’t want Harry to see those childhood memories either, right?). That would TOTALLY explain his reaction upon finding Harry. He’s angry, yes, but also really scared. And Snape’s making a show of putting them in the pensieve is just his way of gloating, as Inky Squirrel mentioned – “snidely showing Harry that his own memories were safe, while all of Harry’s were fair game.” This is the first theory on this that completely makes sense to me!
Snape is a good actor obviously, but I don’t think he’s acting here, partially because of the way he continues to direct his anger at Harry, ignoring him in classes and giving him zeros. Plus, if I were a teacher and a student were arrogant enough to dive into my secret memories, I’d be furious even if I *did* expect it beforehand. I would also be very surprised if Snape showed Harry the memory intentionally, for the purpose of showing him how awful his father was. Snape views Harry through the James-lens – in Dumbledore’s words, sees “what you expect to see.” I think Snape would think (and does think) that Harry would find his father’s actions amusing. And he’s too blinded by that hatred to see that Harry’s true reaction is quite different.
John Kearns said this on January 7, 2010 at 7:30 am
Also meant to respond to Jose Lopes re: Umbridge. I always thought that Umbridge would leave Firenze and Trelawney alone because she doesn’t want to remind everyone of those two episodes, both of which were quite embarrassing for her. Once she’s headmistress it becomes clear very fast that she’s not well-liked, and she’s doing everything in her power to command respect.
John Kearns said this on January 7, 2010 at 7:33 am
Maybe Umbridge is really keeping a [very] low profile (being Hagrid the exception to the rule)…
Jose Lopes said this on January 7, 2010 at 9:51 am
Very good pensieve-discussion, I’ve enjoyed reading all your comments!
I don’t want to repeat much of what’s been said, just two things:
Like Ben I have always imagined someone standing with their head in a bowl when they’re in a pensieve. In that case the way to get out might be to pull your head out of it, just not as simply. You would need some kind of mind-trick. However, I hadn’t thought of two people being in the pensieve at the same time. But then again maybe it becomes as big as it needs to be in that case.
I’m with Inky Squirrel on Snape removing his memories in front of Harry to display that he had that power and Harry not. Most of the arguments for him doing it so that Harry would be able to see them make some sense, too. But if that were the case, why would Snape not only be mad, but also completely cancel Occlumency?
Kim said this on January 7, 2010 at 12:32 pm
When I first read this series, I realized around about book 3 that Snape’s hostility toward Harry was too intense to be explained entirely by his dislike of James. I tried to think of an additional reason – a motive that could be enduring, powerful, and understandable to children reading the books. I formed the theory that in addition to hating James, Snape had been in love with Lily. Needless to say, Snape’s reaction to Lily in the Pensieve completely killed that theory.
JKR bamboozled me with every one of the mysteries she set up in her books. I never figured out who was trying to steal the Sorcerer’s stone, who was opening the Chamber of Secrets, why Scabbers and Crookshanks were behaving so strangely, who Fred and George were trying to blackmail, what mission Voldemort had given to Draco, or where the diadem of Ravenclaw was hidden. And I enjoyed every minute of being bamboozled. :-)
Billie said this on January 7, 2010 at 1:20 pm
This was an interview with Jo on how a Pensieve works:
MA: “Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?”
JKR: It’s reality. It’s important that I have got that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn’t want to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.
ES: I was dead wrong about that.
JKR: Really?
ES: I thought for sure that it was your interpretation of it. It didn’t make sense to me to be able to examine your own thoughts from a third-person perspective. It almost feels like you’d be cheating because you’d always be able to look at things from someone else’s point of view.
MA: So there are things in there that you haven’t noticed personally, but you can go and see yourself?
JKR: Yes, and that’s the magic of the Pensieve, that’s what brings it alive.
ES: I want one of those!
JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn’t it? Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn’t notice the time. It’s somewhere in your head, which I’m sure it is, in all of our brains. I’m sure if you could access it, things that you don’t know you remember are all in there somewhere.
Roonil Wazlib said this on January 7, 2010 at 3:18 pm
Roonil Wazlib, thanks for posting that. That was the interview I referenced earlier, was just too lazy to get it. :)
I think this is one area where I just disagree with Jo. I know it’s her book, but that idea makes no sense to me at all. It raises about a thousand questions – how the reality got into your head, things you could do with it once it’s there, etc. It’s like Legilimency, in that it has to have strict limits on it (stricter than Jo places on it, at least in that interview), or it would be powerful enough to totally dominate the magical world.
John Kearns said this on January 7, 2010 at 3:42 pm
Her description of the Pensieve reminds me of the show Cold Case. Each show consists of a number of flashbacks relating to the case, provided by people who knew the victim. In some of the flashbacks, the witness will be standing fifty feet away, talking to someone else or mowing the lawn or listening to music on headphones, while the victim and someone else have a whispered conversation. Yet the witness hears every word clearly. And the flashbacks are always true.
jayferguson said this on January 7, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Billie, I disagree, I think this is one of those hints where we weren’t as bamboozled as perhaps Jo had hoped. Because I distinctly remember that this chapter single-handedly gave birth AND credibility to the Snape/Lily fic. Admittedly, no one saw the twist of them being childhood friends, but other than that, readers drew a lot of very correct conclusions about Snape/Lily. If you want further proof, check out my pre-DH essay about Marauder-era ships (including Snape/Lily), found here: http://www.hplex.info/essays/essay-marauder-ships.html
Here is the entire text about that section (keep in mind I wrote this when I was fifteen).
“This is one of the most popular m-ships, and one of the best supported. There is a lot of evidence supporting it, and you can read it in other essays, like the one here. I’ll do a sum-up for you.
The scene that indicates this m-ship the best is “Snape’s Worst Memory” in Order of the Phoenix. Why would that be Snape’s worst memory? Surely he’s been bullied plenty of times before. The common belief is that it’s his worst memory because Snape, probably inadvertently, called Lily “Mudblood.” Lily was very likely the only friend Snape had. They probably became friends during Slughorn’s Potions lessons. They both hated the Marauders, so they could have sat together and become friends. Snape probably developed a crush on her. But when he called her “Mudblood,” that would probably have been the end of their friendly relationship. And that’s why it’s Snape’s worst memory. He lost the only girl he ever loved.
This would also explain a lot about Snape’s feelings towards Harry. Harry is the manifestation of Lily’s love for Snape’s enemy—no wonder he hates Harry! It’s interesting to know that Snape never insults Lily throughout the series, while he regularly makes snide comments about James.
This m-ship could actually be very important in DH. I think it may be the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape, and the reason for Snape’s change of loyalties (I won’t go into Snape’s loyalties in this essay, I’ll just discuss why this may be the reason he is or was on the good side). When Snape brought news of the prophecy and Voldemort went to kill the Potters, Snape probably felt awful because he was causing the death of the only girl he loved. This is probably the tale of deepest regret that Snape told Dumbledore.”
As you can see, a lot of that came to be true, and these were quite popular theories back in the day. So I view this chapter not as Jo’s bamboozling, but clever foreshadowing.
hpboy13 said this on January 8, 2010 at 1:42 am
Thanks, hpboy13. I read your “Ships” essay on the Lexicon for the first time a few months ago, and I was very impressed that you had seen through the wool that Jo was pulling over our eyes. And you wrote that when you were 15? I’m even more impressed!
I read the series without being part of the online community of Potter fans – in fact, I didn’t even know the community existed. So all of Jo’s misdirection techniques worked very well on me.
In retrospect, I realize that a lot of Jo’s clues are found in the things that she DOESN’T mention. The fact that Snape never badmouths Lily is one of these. Another good one is the fact that the name of the Hog’s Head barman is never mentioned. (I didn’t pick up on that one, either!)
Billie said this on January 8, 2010 at 1:30 pm
Thanks so much Billie! Yeah, I was 15, and I cringe a little whenever I reread the essays from back then. I must say, you missed out – in the fandom, we were dissecting the books word-for-word to pick up on things like this. We had also caught RAB and Kreacher and Mundungus with the locket in Grimmauld Place (though we never once thought of the twist Jo put there, having Reg sacrifice himself). The fans really did a good job making the most of the scant clues Jo left us.
hpboy13 said this on January 8, 2010 at 7:38 pm
First of all, my apologies for the long comment, and for discussing issues I have very little knowledge about (memory creation and maths).
I was thinking about the Pensieve and the limits to the memories, and I kept picturing it as some sort of hypnotism. I have no first-hand experience, but I have read that while they are in a trance, people can remember details and nuances that they didn’t know they remembered, or didn’t consciously remember. Snape could have heard the marauders’ conversation, the girls chatting by the lake and so on, and stored all this “in the back of his mind”, without even being aware of it. According to my theory, if Snape had been asked at that moment about those details, he would have no conscious recollection of them, but once he got to examine his memories in the Pensieve, he would “see” them and integrate them into his conscious memory.
Regarding Umbridge’s difficulty dealing with the fireworks, I think it’s not that she is not powerful (I don’t think she is a particularly powerful witch), but that she’s not imaginative. I can make a paralell with math problems: you may have all the knowledge (the numbers, what the arithmetical operations are and how they work), but the key to solving the problem is the imagination you need to apply that knowledge. Umbridge strikes me as the stereotypical civil servant who can only do a certain task that requires very little innovation, creativity and outside-the-box thinking. After all, it is mentioned that Stunning and Vanishing the fireworks does not work and is even counterproductive. Other that these two spells, which seem to be the most obvious, how did the other teachers deal with them? There must be another bit of magic we don’t hear about but gets the job done.
Valeria (insufferable know-it-all) said this on January 17, 2010 at 3:02 am
I just realized something that I’d never thought of before- that the reason that particular memory is Snape’s worst is not because of the humiliation, it’s because he called Lily a mudblood, which set off a whole chain reaction. That just shows another thing I love about this series- hints show up in earlier books that you don’t understand until the last book.
Erica said this on January 30, 2010 at 3:45 pm
*LOVE* Mudblood428′s addition is beautiful. I especially love that Harry is right in the middle of everything, rather than to the side. It’s much more in character. :)
Natalia said this on February 7, 2010 at 12:32 am
Something I especially enjoy about Jenny Dolfen’s wonderful picture of the Marauders – she shows James wearing aviator glasses, which were the trendy style in 1975.
Billie said this on February 22, 2010 at 11:46 am
I’ve been wondering…what happens when you go into the Pensieve? Does Snape enter the dungeon and see Harry standing, half-submerged in the Pensieve, or does he look down into the Pensieve and see a little Harry at the bottom of his memory?
yraM said this on March 9, 2010 at 8:45 pm
Looking at these wonderful pictures really brought home something I don’t much think about — that Lily was a redhead. I wonder how much that influenced Harry’s being drawn to the Weasleys and Molly in particular in SS on the platform when they first meet? Or does he even know she was a redhead at that point? Or is it just a buried memory from babyhood?
Anna said this on April 2, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Two more things. The first time I read this, I was certain Umbridge was setting Harry up by saying her fire was the only one not monitored, so that he would try to use it and be caught. I just couldn’t believe she would say that otherwise.
And back to the penseive discussion — and I hope I’m not duplicating anything I overlooked — I noticed that it says when Snape came and pulled Harry out of his memory, “his feet hit the ground” (guessing on the exact quote). Would that be his real feet, or the feeling of his ethereal feet that had been in the penseive rejoining his corporeal feet in the office?
Anna said this on April 3, 2010 at 8:40 pm
I just love, how JK introduces Snape’s hand writing in this chapter. the same writing of course that we will see in HBP. Harry actually looks at Snape’s exam and tells us how the writing is cramped and tiny. one of those things that we just don’t notice the first time.
If only Harry had a better memory. (he should have his own pensieve)
Marta said this on June 10, 2010 at 3:40 pm